The fate of Roma and Sinti in Auschwitz

Transcript of the podcast

At least 23.000 Roma and Sinti, including 11.000 children were deported by the Nazi German regime to Auschwitz. After the Jews and Poles, they are the third largest group of the victims of the camp. The vast majority lost their lives as the result of hunger, brutal treatment, pseudo-medical experiments or were murdered in gas chambers. According to the documentation, over 91% of the Roma deported to Auschwitz were murdered in the camp. I spoke to Teresa Wontor-Cichy from the search centre of the memorial about the faith of Roma and Sinti in Auschwitz.

What were the reasons that the Nazi ideology persecuted the Roma people?

The Roma people were considered by the Nazis as asocial. They were considered as people who were unable to integrate with the society. They were blamed of committing crime as well. So, for that various reasons brought in many circles, mainly the main office of the security, they were considered as the next group for first isolation and then gradually what we know, elimination from the society. That was based on the different laws, agreements, decisions made in Nazi Germany. First, as they were restricted for registration at the very beginning, then for isolation, for slave labour and eventually they were brought to extermination place where actually vast majority of

Romas were incarcerated in different places. Some of them were established, and we also talk about the time before the beginning of the Second World War, so there were some camps and places of incarceration created especially for the Sinti and Roma people, but when we talk about persecutions during the war, the situation changes. They were also placed sometimes in for the ghettos that were established for Jews.

As we look at the problem of the Roma people during the Second World War, we may notice some parallel situation to what happened to the Jewish community. But there are very important differences. First of all, at the beginning after the Nazi came to power and introduce the different regulations within German society, the Roma people were to be sent for work for slave labour. And this is why the camps were organized. This is why also process of a scientific provement of their ideas started. So, in the very famous institute of the racial hygiene, the special district dedicated to Roma was established and a profound scientist, Robert Ritter, started his analysis, having some assistance, and it was all to broad the justification to the theories. First were the camps, the slave labour camps and many of the Roma people were being used also for some analysis. And later on, when the war started, when the ghetto started to be organised for the Jewish people, like for example Litzmannstadt, 5000 Austrian Roma were sent there and after a few months of staying there, they were all sent for Kulmhof for the extermination place and they were all murdered there.

The history of Roma prisoners in Auschwitz can be divided into at least two periods. The first one is the period before establishment of the family camp of the Roma – so where can we trace the first Roma prisoners in the camp and what do we know about this initial period?

It’s actually the very beginning of the camp existence. We know that Auschwitz was the men’s camp, so for a year and a half, till March 1942 only men were deported to Auschwitz and there were also among them the Roma people. Unfortunately, the documentation which is so fractured is not allowing us to give the exact number. But how do we know that there were some Roma people? Just some sources which survived, which are saying that they were from Roma families or some of them were identified by their family members who survived the war, and they were registered usually as asocial prisoners marked with black triangle. They were registered as criminal prisoners. The reason of arrest was really different. Some of them were not at the right time for work, or they were arrested because of some crime. Not only from the territory of before Second World War Poland, also from the neighbour countries like they were some men from the Protectorate of Czech and Moravia sent here also marked as asocial prisoners and given the black triangle. So, we can’t really say how many of them were, but it gives us just a path that the reason of the arrest was in many cases the same as later on for their families. The family deportation started in spring, early spring 1943 and that’s the second phase, the second period of the Roma story in Auschwitz.

We can see some crucial decision-making process when we look at the documents by Heinrich Himmler and by the Nazi hierarchy in Germany, so December 1942 the decision to arrest Roma population and deport them to a concentration camp, and later precise order that stated that this concentration camp will be Auschwitz, and this transforms the story of Roma people in a camp.

It’s very unique situation if we generally analyse the history of Auschwitz. For the historians documents are so precious. Just the two mentioned documents: the December ’42 and then the specification from January is, what we may say, the most important for the existence of the camp. Why am I saying so? We analyse so widely the destruction of the Jewish people and historians are looking for the documentation for the most important papers or written orders about particular group even the whole fact, the whole process, and so far, we don’t have as much as we want. In this case that’s something what we may say it's another, really unique character of this camp.

The assess creates in Birkenau Zigeunerlager, as they refer to it. I think we need to talk about the language and about the terms, because we talk about Roma or Roman Sinti. Here in German language, we have the word Zigeuner, so a gypsy. What does this language also tell us about the attitude towards the Roma people by the Nazi ideology and what language should we use also today when we talk about the story of Roma in the camp?

Many words - this is true. If we look at the German documentation, for example those we mentioned moment ago, we will find information about Zigeuner, the German word which we can translate into English as a gypsy. If we look at the camp documentation saying about some facts, what happened or how some prisoners were described, we can also find Ziegeunerlager, the gypsy camp, or just the words Zigeuner, referring to a particular person. And in the literature, we can find the words Sinti and Roma. Who were Sinti and Roma? They were members of this community who were living in terms of Sinti in Western Europe and as they declare themselves as a different tribe, different family, so this is why they are using the word Sinti and most of the Eastern Europe was being inhabited by the Roma family. So, this is why to be more precise we are using the word Roma.

The mass deportation of the Roma people to Auschwitz begins in early 1943. What are the similarities and differences of their arrival and their being registered and their becoming prisoners of Auschwitz? Because on one hand they are non-Jews, so they are not selected, but they have a different number structure, they live in a separate place, so how we place them in prisoners community and also different approach of the SS?

Some of the survivors who were in the camp already for several months, and especially those who were having some functions in the camp – functions means they have some duties, they were allowed to move around the camp, so they know more about the structure. So, they are saying when they saw the first Roma family who were in the camp, they were absolutely shocked. They have heard about Jews being brought to the unloading platform, going for selection. Then they noticed some newcomers to the camp, but now they saw families. Families going through the camp: adults, children, they are carrying their luggage, they are having their own clothes and they are all entering one part of the camp. They are not in panic, they are not in fear, they are not protesting. Just taking care of one another. They are following the instructions. Then, in the camp, the sector they were all directed, was located in the main part of the camp. They were allowed to stay all together. They were not separated. They were not selected, as I mentioned. They were all with the whole families entering the camp. In the barracks the family very often was staying on one bank. They were given numbers. Separate series of numbers was introduced in the camp just for the Roma people. To distinguish that they are just from this family camp, for the triangle, for the number, the letter Z was added – from the word Zigeuner – gypsy. The triangle was black which also was having the reference to the fact that they were considered as asocial prisoners. They were first group which was located in this middle part of the camp. So, there were no other prisoners for some period of time, of course. Later on, some other groups started to be brought there, but just the way the camp look like was very surprising for the prisoners. Maybe less for the administration, because this is how they were to organise the camp, but definitely for the prisoners.

One of the key questions that we should ask when we talk about something that is called a family camp for Roma people in Birkenau is: Why the Germans decided to do it? Do we know the reasons why the groups of Roma people who are arrested and deported are suddenly brought and kept together as families?

This subject is being very often analysed by not only historians. Also, sociologists, anthropologists. There are few very important issues concerning the Roma community, which were important for taking them as the whole families. First of all: their lifestyle which was based on family life. The nomadic traditional lifestyle – so travelling from place-to-place concern always the families. So, the links were for the community very, very important. As from the German plan, the destruction was to eliminate the whole community – so it means everybody. From babies to elderly people. So again, the fact that the deportation which was to concern the whole group was actually not that much against their tradition, against something that was characteristic for them. And in fact, as a process of destruction, it really worked. Destruction, the number of victims and the losses for the community because of the fact that the whole families were murdered in Birkenau camp were enormous.

So does it mean that the Germans try to preserve paradoxically some of their culture and traditions by keeping the families together, it would be easier to control them and also making sure that eventually they’ll be exterminated.

It also comes from the fact that looking at the documentation we may found the word not exactly extermination, like isolation. Isolation with the concept of doing something with this group whatever is going to happen. The idea was brought up first of all because of the problems with numbers. As for the Jewish people the statistics were prepared actually in 1941. So, they knew that they are dealing with 11 million of Jewish people living in Europe, approximately. In terms of the Roma people the problems were coming from first of all: the lifestyle. In many countries they kept their traditional nomadic lifestyle – so difficulties with registration. That was the first idea how many people are going to be considered for the whole process? And this is why that was eventually organised like first isolation, and then the conditions they were brought to, were the main reason for extermination. So, the process we may see was just evaluating over the time they were in Birkenau.

How would you describe this specificity of the family camp in Birkenau? What are the key elements of existence of the Roma people in this isolated part of this huge camp complex?

Let’s maybe look at their day, what it looked like. So, it all started with the rollcall. They were to be counted, what was characteristic for all the prisoners. Even those who were sick, even those who were unable to stand for the rollcall, they were to be brought outside the barracks. Then they were given a meal and then in most of the camp, prisoners were to prepare the working units and be taken outside for work. In terms of Sinti and Roma the situation was different. The part they were brought for was still under construction, was not finished. There were barracks standing, but they were not completed, there was no proper floor. The sewage was not ready. Lots of different type of construction work. So, some of the men were forming the working units and they have to do this work. Most of them did not have the regular assignment for the work. It resulted in limited food rations, so the food they were given in the morning, around noon and in the evening was never enough. But at the beginning they were having some of the products they brought with them, but it was gone very quickly. Women were to take care of the children. The children, as there were that many of them – the total number of children was 11.000. Well, not 11.000 at one time, the number was changing, but still – lots of children over there. So, they were taken for place which we may call as kindergarten or pre-school which was in one of the buildings. There were some prisoners who were to organise the day for them, and this is how the life looked like. Some of the Roma were musically gifted. They were having their instruments. So, they made their own spontaneous, we may say, groups and they were playing music. The music was especially remembered when there was some visitors coming for this camp. Why visitors? That’s again a surprising situation. There were many delegations coming to Auschwitz but surprisingly many more just for the Zigeunerlager. Maybe because of the fact that they were family there. Also, they were making some documentaries, some films. The survivors remember some groups coming with the cameras and they were filming children playing outside. Outside kindergarten they made a little playground, some facilities for the younger prisoners and also music was around. So, they were appealing immediately with their instrument and really cheerful music. The children were dancing, the women were dancing. So, it really didn’t fit to something what we associate with concentration camp. We very often find the word in the testimonies as “the propaganda element”. Most probably it was used to show how the process of elimination the Roma people in Germany is going and just these footages undoubtedly could be used for that.

What was the impression of the family camp for other prisoners?

Extraordinary. This is how they describe this. First, the people brought with completely unawareness and even the trust towards the Germans which was gradually changing as their conditions were catastrophic. Lack of sanitation, very poor and constantly limited food rations and diseases. Different kind of diseases caused basically by lack of sanitation. So, they could notice even the visual changes of this camp. From nicely dressed to people who are all the time they kept their own clothes; it was not changed. So, the clothes was changing into some dirty and ripped pieces of clothing, and then the results of the diseases, starvation so swollen legs. The children walking around without any care. Especially we may see it on some drawings by the survivors when the view was just miserable, was just so bad.

The living conditions there caused many diseases and the diseases forced the Germans and in particular the camp doctor of the family camp, Josef Mengele, to take very radical steps in something that is even hard to call health prevention.

Josef Mengele arrived to this camp in late May 1943 with this task to be the main doctor of the Zigeunerlager, what was a routine in the camp, it wasn’t something extra ordinary. There were many German doctors, SS members who were having the position in the camp as Lagerarzt. There was even Standortarzt, the main doctor responsible for all the medical issues. So, when the epidemic started he was introducing very radical methods, like for example, there was the epidemic of scabies in the camp and his concept was to let for the disinfection all the people being in the camp, they brought three huge tubs which were filled with some liquids – chemicals, not water, only one was with water, with some soap, the other were with some other substances. So, the people were to undress first and naked go through all this procedure. So, people who were having the wounds were screaming, because that was painful, that was irritating, the wounds. And also, as it was all in the autumn, they have to wait without any clothing, so because of cold, because of some infections many of them eventually died. Another situation is the transport of Roma people from Białystok. When the transport reached the camp there was an information there was some cases of the typhoid fever in this group. So, the group was not registered, all of them were sent immediately for the gas chamber. Another similar situation happened once more in the camp. This time the Roma people were registered, were admitted for the camp, but again, because some of them were suffering from this disease. They were selected and again, sent for the gas chamber.

Josef Mengele is also known for him pseudo-medical criminal experiments and while part of his activity in the Roma camp is an element of the overall pseudo-medical research that he was doing, in this case we talk about the twins and the Roma families that were deported to Auschwitz somehow facilitated his general experiments, but we also know the story of the family camp of the particular diseases that he could trace there and it also influenced his work.

It was not an incident that he was brought just for this camp. Mengele graduated university with two PhDs: in anthropology and then in medicine. So very gifted young doctor, and he was hired immediately by very prestigious scientific institution in Germany, the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institute, this time it was directed by professor Otmar von Verschuer. Many tasks they were undertaking were part of the Nazi ideology, like ideas of the genetics of some issues which are inherited. And according to Professor von Verschuer the best idea of analysis how some of the diseases, the features are being taken down in the families are the cases of twins and triplets. In natural situation they could only have twins or triplets as a children but they wanted to extend the project also having different age groups and also in the family as the cases of twins are naturally repeating in the family, so they could also have few generations and as the Zigeunerlager was a family camp so the Roma were in few generations very often. So, that was for his needs the best place. And this is why he was sent there. This is how he made his lab on the back part of one of the building, and started to select the people he needed. Children mainly, but not only. He also started to be interested with people in some body abnormalities. They were also placed separately. And the experiment started with the very general analysis. He was having an anthropologist, so very detail anthropological information was prepared. Then all the observation by paediatrician, neurologist, surgeon, and other specialists. And then the final stage of the experimentation was the autopsy, so the people were murdered, and the pathologists, so again – the specialist was completing the documentation. One of the person cooperating with institute was Karin Magnussen, and she was interested in eye colour. And again, he noticed that there are some Roma people having different eye colours, so to pursue her project, he was choosing the people with different eye colour, then they were murdered, and then the eyeballs were prepared as an object for analysis and sent for Germany for the institute.

What about the facial disease? Water cancer, the noma, that he could find among the Roma imprisoned in the family camp?

Noma, the cancer of a cheek was known by the doctors. Mainly from literature. Some cases were known in Balkan countries, also in Ukraine, but it was not really common in the other parts of the world. And what they noticed was that mainly Roma children was suffering from this disease. We have to remember that very shortly after Zigeunerlager was established, as a family camp in the same sector of the camp another family camp was established. This time for Jewish families from ghetto in Theresienstadt, so the Jews from the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, and there were no cases of this disease in this part. So, Mengele again prepared a project, the doctors were to make the analysis, the children were separated. They were first of all, they were cleaned as the children should be every evening, so normal, regular sanitation was introduced for them. Then they were nourished better. They were given white bread, fruits, some products which contains vitamins, and they notice that the result of them – this is what was the result, how the disease infected the children. First, it was a little wound in a cheek, then all the tissues were infected – the cheek tissues, so the children looked like they were having huge hole in their face. So just this hole with the infection around started after this procedure, after sanitation, after better treatment, started to close. They were not leaking, they were not so infectious, so the report was that this disease was caused mainly by lack of sanitation, poor sanitation, and malnutrition. And again, as the experiment was finished, the final stage was the autopsy, so the children were killed, in some cases as we know even the heads of the children were considered for analysis, so they were prepared as a samples and sent for further tests, and the other were taken for the autopsies.

This is part of the tragedy of Roma children in Auschwitz. You mentioned the numbers: 11.000 children. We mentioned the experiments and horrible living condition and because it was a family camp there were also pregnant women and there were also children born in the Zigeunerlager and this is another part of this tragedy.

It is. We know that there were also children born in this camp. 378 children. All the children died. Some of them died very shortly after they were born. The conditions, mothers were exhausted, they were unable to sustain, to support the children after they were born. Then those who were stronger and survive until the 2nd of August 1944, they were killed in a gas chambers. The children who were born, they became prisoners. They were given the numbers. They were registered as, well, they were given name and surname, but also the number, so this is how their life actually started. With being numbered and ended so quickly.

Another small part of the children story in the family camp is the story of children from orphanage in Mulfingen. This is both tragic and very interesting, because it also tells us something about anthropological approach of the Nazi ideology towards the Roma culture and the Roma people.

Over thirty children were taken from their parents. They were all German families, and they were located to an orphanage in Mulfingen. Their conditions, they were proper as for children – they were having education, they were all children in the school time, so doctor Ritter – the one who was leading the special research concerning Roma was visiting this orphanage frequently. And not only some anthropological analyses were introduced, but as we know also some tests. The children were to write some tests in maths, languages, they were to draw. We know that Doctor Ritter wanted them to repeat some of the material and he was very disappointed that the children were able to do all these tasks. That they could fill properly, correctly, all the mathematical tasks or some other discipline. And as we know that was just one of the elements to prove their inability to integrate. The intellectual also differences which was one of the theses, something that was discussed as well.

Do we see a particular image of the family camp and of the Roma prisoners in documents or sources linked with world of the SS?

Unfortunately, we don’t have records, interviews, some written material from the time of the camp existence. What we have, and it’s extremally precious are two accounts – one by Rudolf Höss, the commandant of the camp, the organiser of Auschwitz, and it comes from the time when he was in prison during the trial. He decided also to write about his time in Auschwitz. He’s not going into details, not to emotion at all. And also, his presence, his engagement in these events are completely not existing. Another person which we may expect to be more open about the camp was Pery Broad. He could be more open because he was having his duties specifically in this camp, so he knew a lot about the registration, everyday life, about the different events, he was very well informed. And again, as we read what he was writing, again, in the prison awaiting for the trial is very dry, technical, with actually not his engagement, in almost not his presence in the camp. So, it is important. It is for the whole story in a way precious. But again, it illustrates the attitude and how the administration in the camp was treating this group. That they were just the prisoners for some period of time, maybe shorter, maybe longer, but for extermination as many others.

It can also be surprising this very dry, technical description, because when we analyse this story of some of the Roma prisoners, they were Germans, some of them were deported to the camp in German uniforms, because they were soldiers in the army. Does this situation of German Sinti somehow result in different treatment, releases or hear the ideological force of the Nazis that finally decide that Roma people are supposed to be isolated is more important than the story of German citizens who were Roma?

We use the word Roma, but this is true, they were people from different countries. Most of them were from Germany, from Austria, then from Poland, Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, so today Czechian. Then in smaller numbers from France, from Belgium, from Holland, former Soviet Union, and also individual cases from Spain and from Norway. So, we may say loads of nationalities. Many of the survivors remember soldiers, the combatants of the First World War. Also, some of the Sinti who were released from the army, they joined the families and later on in the uniforms they were brought for the camp. For example, the Kapo of Bekleidungskammer, Bekleidungskammer that was the storage with the clothing, he was the combatant of the war. He was allowed to keep his uniform and to the other inmates he was saying that this is a misunderstanding. He is the loyal citizen of Germany, and he is going to be released shortly, he has some duties here to do in this storage, but it’s a misunderstanding, and he was even looking down on the other Roma in this camp. But the time was passing, the situation became worse and worse, and he died in the camp. He died because of the epidemics as many, many others. There were also situations of people with mixed families and there was a very famous story of a mother with five children. She was German but her husband was Roma. He was fighting in the army at that time and because of the Roma children they were arrested and brought for the camp. In some other cases the family was sending letters to different offices, different institutions in Germany to try the people to be released from the camp. One of the story with happy end is a story of a little girl – Elsa Schmidt adopted by a German family. When the girl was eight years old, one day the Gestapo appeared in her house saying that they have to take the girl, because of her Roma origin. The adoptive parents were really surprised. They were not informed about it and also that was not so important for them when they were adopting a baby. So, the girl was first taken for a place where they were gathering the Roma, then with people she didn’t know, she was transported to Birkenau. Again, in Birkenau she was surrounded by the people she couldn’t understand, no familiar faces, she was completely alone. She stopped talking, she stopped communicating with the other people. Luckily, one of the supervisors of the women who was responsible for the barrack noticed this little girl being completely alone. She took care of her for some period of time until she was transferred to Ravensbrück. That was some time before the liquidation of the camp. Some group of Roma people were being transferred to Ravensbrück. And the family, her German family was using all the methods, all the offices, it is even said that the father decided to join the Nazi party, so late as 1944 to have some support, to have some influence on getting the little girl out of the camp and they succeed. She was released from the camp, being in a very poor physical condition, but she was alive.

Were there any Roma prisoners that tried to escape?

Some of the prisoners from the Zigeunerlager were trying to escape. They were sent again for some duties in the territory outside the camp, and a group was trying to escape. So again, it was in terms of strategy pretty risky. The whole decision was spontaneous, so sometimes after when the Germans started to search for these people most of them were caught in some areas not far away from the camp and some were shot immediately, some were kept for the investigation in block number 11, or some of them were also sent for penal company, because of their attempts to escape from the camp.

That family camp is liquidated on the night between the 2nd and the 3rd August of 1944 and this ends the story of this extraordinary part of Birkenau, but there is also an event that today we date somewhere at the end of April of 1944 when apparently the Roma people think that there was going to be the liquidation because they witnessed the liquidation of another family apart of the family camp of the Jews from Theresienstadt and there is a case of passive resistance when the SS arrive the Roma people decided to stay in the barracks and not react and this is an incredibly brave act. We can also see resistance when the final decision comes and when those a little bit over 4000 Roma Sinti prisoners are finally liquidated in August, and this is the last stage of this one and a half year story of this large Sinti and Roma community among the prisoners of Auschwitz.

It’s also the time that some of the groups are being sent for Germany. Again, as the German economy needs desperately hands for work, so some of the healthy, strong people are being selected and sent somewhere, nobody knows where. But we know from the documentation they were sent for Germany. So, it is kind of dynamic process in the Zigeunerlager. The Roma being so long in the camp they already are aware of the traditions in the camp. They know about the gas chambers and crematorias and who was being sent there. They knew what happened to the family camp for the Jews from Theresienstadt, so not so far from their location. So, more and more information is coming, but still, they are families. Still, they are not having the chances to be equipped with some tools, not to mention some rifle to fight, but it is just this strong atmosphere and also fear. Fear which was definitely devastating many of them what is going to happen. So, what we may relate with more evidence are the events at the night of 2nd and 3rd August 1944 as the liquidation of the camp. We know that the people – all those who were still there, over 4.000 men, women, and children, most of them were in fact women and children, were to leave their barracks. They were loaded on the trucks, and they were killed in a gas chamber. And this is how the Zigeunerlager was emptied.

Were there anymore Roma prisoners in the camp afterwards?

It’s a very surprising situation. Again, if we look especially at the list of deportees, newcomers for the camp, because just after few weeks of the liquidation we may find the record that from Buchenwald a group of women was deported to Auschwitz, and they have been before to the camp. Not only women, also, another transport with men who were in Birkenau before were again from Buchenwald transferred to Auschwitz. It’s actually very difficult to explain why, so actually Roma people were in the camp till the end of the camp existence.

When we talk about the extermination of Jews in Auschwitz, but also in many other places one of the huge problem the researchers face is the lack of names, because in many cases the name disappeared. In the story of the Zigeunerlager in Auschwitz we know the names because of the bravery of the prisoners who saved the records.

That’s another element which makes the camp unique. The so called Hauptbuch, the main register Buch. It was a routine for the camp for each sector to have this type of registration. All the people who were located in this sector were listed in this book. Those who were responsible for keeping the records were the prisoners, different nationalities. Some of them were also Polish. And in 1944 they know the routine of the Germans as they tend to destroy the documentation. They tend to eliminate the evidence of crime. So, knowing that this may happen also to this Hauptbuch, one of the prisoners, Tadeusz Joachimowski decided to cover the books with blankets, wrap them in the blankets, but into bucket or just a container and to put it into the ground, and this is how the book was saved. Unfortunately, at the time it was in the ground, the water affected a little bit of the pages, but still the names we can read, and this is how we know who was there. In 1949, the group of the survivors came to Birkenau. It was already a museum, so an institution, and they uncovered the ground, they took the very precious books, and this is how we know so much about these people.

Memory of the suffering of the Sinti and Roma people in Auschwitz for many years after the war was surrounded with silence out of many reasons. But today this group of the Auschwitz victims is of course recognised. There is also since several decades the growing movement among the Roma people itself to document the crime, we have the documentation centre in Heidelberg that later created the exhibition dedicated to the fate of the Roma here at the Auschwitz memorial, the 2nd of August is every year a very important day of remembrance here at the site, so today we can see that this memory, one of those many memories that are preserved here at the Auschwitz memorial is saved.

It is. And the 2nd of August is so important for us. We are gathering in Birkenau. There was a time that we were having survivors with us. Not many, because as we analyse not many survived, only those who were sent from here. We were having families, and now we are having also young people organisation, the youth movement of the Roma community. So, we are really glad to have them with us in Birkenau and to remember about this people as they absolutely should be remembered.